Why We Sleep, Dream, and Lose Our Minds Without It

Why do we sleep? What’s going on in our brains while we dream about flying bagels and dolphin taxis? In this episode of Wildly Curious, Katy Reiss and Laura Fawks Lapole stay up late to explore the science of sleep, REM cycles, lucid dreaming, and why getting less than 5 hours can mess with your memory, mood, and metabolism.

🧠 From brain waves and neurotransmitters to memory formation and emotional resets
 😴 The truth about sleep deprivation, circadian rhythms, and why you might be hallucinating
 💭 Plus: weird dreams, sleepwalking, dream interpretation, and the neuroscience of it all

Whether you're curious about why sleep matters, how your brain detoxes overnight, or what dreams really mean, this episode has you covered—with science, laughter, and a few too many dolphin references.

Transcript

​[00:00:00] 

Laura: Hello and welcome to Wildly Curious, a podcast that tells you everything you need to know about nature, and probably more than you wanted to know. I'm Laura.

Katy: And I'm Katy, and today we are going to be talking about sleep. Sleep is the invisible force that powers every aspect of life because it does, or at least it should. 

Laura: We record this at 9 45 Eastern Time.

Katy: Yeah. 

So Laura and I are gonna divide this up. Uh, she's gonna talk about what happens when we sleep, and we're gonna really try not to make this boring. No. We never make anything boring. 

Laura: This is a heavier science one, but it's still gonna be good.

Katy: Yeah. And then, so Laura's gonna talk about, , what happens in the brain when we sleep.

I'm gonna talk about why do we dream? Laura's gonna talk about impacts of sleep deprivation, and then I, for some reason. I'm gonna talk about tips and tricks for better sleep and why it matters because I'm the last, I had to do research. I know what I should do 

Laura: right. Or for me with like sleep [00:01:00] deprivation, I was like, yeah, yeah.

yeah, 

Katy: yeah, 

Laura: This is a warning 

for 

Katy: This is right. All right, well, I do have some nature news, that it was coming out of. Let's see here. Yeah. Science news.org. We have some good news for, well, kind of good news. I guess this is a double-edged sword. So our koalas friends, how we've, if you guys haven't listened to that episode about , how we talk about why animals should be extinct.

Qualis are definitely one of them that should be extinct because of every, everything. They only eat a few species of outta the whatever, hundreds of species of different eucalyptus. They can literally only eat or they can, can only eat about 20. They prefer two or three. Just as much as eucalyptus is poisonous to everything else, it's poisonous to a koala.

Their pouch is upside down because they used to be buring and then now there are broil. Yeah, the eucalyptus oil itself explodes, they just live in a grenade. 

Laura: all have chlamydia. 

Katy: Yeah. Well, [00:02:00] speaking of chlamydia, so, so, but this is where the double-edged sword comes from because they just, scientists have recently found out that there's a population in Sydney that the chlamydia level is actually very low.

And so they were like, oh, that's interesting. Like, why is it so low here? Turns out it's because they're all basically inbred, 

so, so it's like, okay. So yes, their isolation has isolated them against chlamydia. So they were like, oh, fantastic. Why does this population of koalas. Not have chlamydia.

'cause if you guys don't know about 90, over 90% of the koalas in Australia have chlamydia. And honestly, chlamydia for koalas really isn't that dangerous until they're stressed out. If you're living on a grenade or your baby's falling outta your pouch, everything you eat is poison,, then your life tends to be a little more stressed.

So anyway, so yeah. So they found that, oh, what's interesting about this population that it doesn't have chlamydia, it's [00:03:00] because it's inbred. So they're starting to then bring in koalas from other regions that could enhance the genetic diversity. 

Laura: But

now they all have chlamydia

Katy: now that heightens the 

Laura: a. 

Katy: of chlamydia because it's an STD.

And so, yeah, so again, kind of a, a double-edged sword there for our poor koalas. And if you don't know the side effects, whenever it does start to affect. Quas, the side effects are def or infertility, blindness, and death. So

Laura: No big deal.

Katy: no big deal. Yeah. Considering it really, now listen again, 

Laura: I 

feel like that's also the risks of inbreeding. So

Katy: no exact, right, exactly.

Yeah. So it's again, double edged sword. So scientists really excited at first, and then they're like, oh, cool. This population doesn't really have chlamydia. And then they're like, wait a minute, it's because they're in bread. So yeah, on that note, dreaming, 

Laura: transition to chlamydia. Yeah.[00:04:00] 

Katy: Laura, you normally always have a really good transition, 

Laura: Inbreeding, no, I actually don't

even really wanna touch it. Even if

I could make one, it'd probably be a mistake.

Katy: yeah. Right. All right, so like we said, we're gonna divide this up. So Laura's gonna start first, , with, about what's going on in the brain whenever you're sleeping, and then I'm gonna be talking about dreaming.

Laura: Cool. Yeah, like always, especially with the science ones, I always learn doing this podcast, but I did learn a lot for this one. I'm so sorry. Boy, as we talk about sleep, I'm gonna keep yawning

because I have sleep deprivation. Well, fun fact sleeping takes up to one third to one quarter of a human lifespan. So if that's not a little bit depressing, I feel like that's why I fight sleep because I don't wanna waste a further,

or not waste, but it just seems like a lot.

Katy: yeah. It does seem like a lot, I, I wonder if they would like that statistic for the average person 'cause a DHD people. Really? Yeah. I never [00:05:00] get eight hours, first of all. Again, I'm one of those people that like my peak, if I hit eight hours, I'm, it's too much. Like I'm too drowsy for me. Seven hours.

Again, I still hit those insomnia spells with my A DHD and stuff. Every once in a while where I go like 50 something days was my longest streak, and that was as little as 40 minutes a night and no more than four hours a night. So yeah, again, I'm not the one that should be talking about tips and tricks.

Continue.

Laura: Well, what happens when we sleep? I mean, of course we all know like individually. Sure. What happens when we sleep, we rest and we dream. But what's actually going on in your brain? It's pretty interesting. But , basically everything in your body, it all comes down to neurotransmitters.

Having a lot with you, getting tired and feeling tired, and then falling asleep. So when you transition between sleep and wake, or waking and sleeping, there's a whole bunch of different brain structures going on. I'm not gonna go into each one and what they're doing. I'm just saying the [00:06:00] hypothalamus, the hippocampus, the amygdala, the thalamus, the reticular formation, and the pons. We've talked about brain structures in the past. You can always go back

Katy: Yeah, and, and I'll, and I'll hit on some of those a a little bit too. 

Laura: Yeah, those are just some things that are helping with the onset of sleep, the memory stuff, you know, all all that thing. So once you've actually starting to fall asleep, you're gonna go through cycles. There are a couple different stages of sleep. There's two main differences. There's non REM sleep. REM sleep. First comes non-REM and REM means rapid eye movement.

So this is before any of that happens. So within non-REM sleep, there are three stages. First one, light sleep. That's just the 5% of what, like it's only a few minutes. It's that twitchy state, you know what I mean? Where you're just

falling asleep and you think of something I'll, I specifically remember once where I was just thinking about crossing a stream and slipping, and then my leg like twitched. You're just in [00:07:00] this weird, yeah.

You can wake yourself real easy and you only spend about 5% of your time sleeping in this state. It's just a few minutes. Then you transition into deeper sleep. This is about 45% of your sleep. This is where you spend the majority of your time.

Katy: sorry, I'm looking at my Garmin watch. It's just which tracks, , my sleep and it, and it does track like what I, how much I spend in each one. It's not good, but it's, it's not, first of all, my scores are always horrible, but how long did you say you should stay in light 

Laura: Well, light sleep is just 5% of the time, so it's just a few

Katy: Okay, well, you say that. However, on an average night, I spend about six hours in light sleep.

Laura: I don't even know how that's possible

Katy: I 

Laura: unless your watch is jacked. 

Katy: No, no, it's, it's accurate. It's, this is, I mean, this is why I have such crappy,

like this is, this contributes to a lot of other stuff, so you do need good sleep.

Laura: Well, and then so you go into deeper sleep, which is [00:08:00] where you should be spending, or most people spend about 45 min percent of it.

Katy: You're gonna correct it every time. You're like, well, most people.

Laura: This is when your body temperature starts to lower your heart rate and your breathing start to regulate. And this is basically when they're doing sleep studies and they're looking at your brain, the only way to know that this is going on, so this might be where your watch gets complicated because. The only way to actually know that this state is happening is because in the brain it's characterized by sleep spindles,

which are short, but powerful bursts of neurons firing. So it's just like,, and then nothing and then, and then nothing. And then they're also something called K complexes, which are these long brainwaves, but they only last a second.

Like they're like, so it's,

it's like a time where you're not deep asleep, you're just resting

and there's intermittent firing. This is, fun fact. This is [00:09:00] where teeth grinding happens. So all of us teeth grinders,

we're grinding 'em in this stage, which I think is interesting.

Katy: So is that the, what they classify as N 

Laura: two? yeah. 

Katy: Okay. So the Garmin classifies light sleep as N one and N 

Laura: Okay. Okay. 

Katy: So out of out of seven hours of sleep, whatever a night I, the vast majority of my sleep is either in light or awake.

Laura: So N two is, this is this is where it gets longer every cycle of sleep.

So when you sleep, you're going through cycles of stages, as confusing as that is. But N two is where a lot of people spend most of their time.

Then you go into N three, which is the deep sleep.

That's about 25% of sleep time for

Katy: 38 minutes.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. So slow delta waves. This is when you are just dead to the world. You brain is just cruising. This is when it's hardest for you to [00:10:00] be woken up and you're mentally and, and it's been proven that people who are woken up in this stage are mentally foggy for up to an hour,

which for sure I've been woken up many

times in this stage 

Katy: this is when I get, like you, yeah. You wake me up in this stage and I am uncontrollably angry. And it'll make it sound bad, but it's like I, it takes me a bit to be like, oh. , I just yelled at that per, I didn't mean to, it's just I come out of that, it's like such deep, and I'm like, wow.

Laura: yeah. I'm not angry, but I am like, I actually I'll have the spin sometimes from waking up during this.

Like I won't be able to stand up straight for a second. I have to

hold onto the wall trying to get 

Katy: so I, I, yeah, like I get mad, but it's I don't, it takes me a bit to be like, oh, I shouldn't be mad at this person. Yeah. Like I had to wake up for whatever reason. So.

Laura: Well, and what's interesting is that the older you are, the less time you spend here and the more you go back to N two. So

deep sleep is really for the younger you are, the [00:11:00] more time you spend here. But that makes sense because your body really is like working hard when you're a kid.

Katy: Yeah. 

Laura: A teenager and a young adult.

And then you know this because this is the time where your body is really doing what it needs to do when it sleeps,

as far as repairing tissue, building bones and muscle, and strengthening your immune system. They, they think that this is the stage where the, like the bad sleep stuff happens, like night terrors, bedwetting,

and sleepwalking because your body isn't locked down yet, which is interesting, like that you are deeply asleep, but you are not paralyzed.

Okay?

Like you are in another stage or another

cycle here. , so you can still walk around, you can still like jerk awake, things like that. It's just really hard to be woken up. So all of , those three stages there, the non-REM sleep. There is evidence that this may be the most important for memory and learning.

So if you are not [00:12:00] getting in the first three stages, then it's not good for your memory. And it's likely the most restful, right? Because the last stage or the last stage you're gonna go through is rem, and that's not exactly restful at all. It's rapid eye movement, so your body isn't actually resting almost. So it's good that the majority of your time, Katy, is spent in at least these three, because you're not

dreaming, but Yeah, you're, you know, okay. So once you've gone through the non-REM, then you enter rem, and that is the rapid eye movement. It's typically starts 90 minutes after falling asleep, roughly.

I don't know where they're, I mean, like

Katy: Yeah. 

Laura: the sleep studies they've done on people

generally, and again, it takes about about 25% of your sleeping time. Your eyes are moving quickly, which is why it's called this. But basically your brainwaves are similar to being awake. Your breathing and your heart rate increases. Like basically you're awake, except that your body is essentially [00:13:00] paralyzed. It shuts

down all of your motor neurons, which is

pretty cool. Because otherwise you'd be acting out all of these dreams,

 Katy's gonna talk about later about dreaming. This is like when dreaming happens, and this is when arousal happens, and less time is spent in REM as you age.

The older you get, the less you spend here and the more you're going back to just the end, to, you're just kind of in between. You're lightly sleeping, , and so you're gonna cycle through all of those four stages, spending less time in deep sleep and more time in REM as the night progresses.

And usually you're gonna loop through these stages four to five times.

So. Go over and over and over. Your brain's just cycling through this. And then eventually more, most people wake up during a REM cycle, which is why a lot of people remember their dreams, because that's just

when your body naturally wakes up.

Katy: Yeah.

Laura: 'cause again, you're so close to already being awake. ,

Katy: Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah.

Laura: So [00:14:00] then one last thing. What are the processes that are happening during sleep? There are, this is, the purpose of sleep is highly debated. There is no certainty of why we sleep. There's all nothing but theories. They're all very good theories.

 But they do know that some things are happening.

They just don't know if this is the reason why we sleep. But these are things that are happening. Memories are built and stored. Your brain clears itself of toxins. Your heart and your muscles get to relax because they've been working so hard all day. Your immune system strengthens your metabolism regulates. And certain areas of the brain that regulate emotions are actually more active. So you're regulating yourself essentially. You're just, it is a reset, right? Like

your body gets a rest and you get to just chill and start over the next day, and that's what happens when you sleep.  

Katy: All right. I am going to then talk about why do we dream? [00:15:00] So let's just talk about dreams in general. 

And this 

Laura: like y is again, such like a subjective,

Katy: it is, it is, it definitely is. so dreaMs. The, basically your brain movies where you're flying, , your ex shows up to your childhood home, you're in high school.

Again, the reason why you're a dolphin, all of that, it is just all kinds of craziness that happens. So turns out that dreaming mostly, again, happens during the REM sleep when your brain is just, like Laura said, awake, but your body is paralyzed. 

It's called re atonia, and that's what's keep you from flailing your way through the dream without like sword fighting and things punching people and things like that. 

Laura: that 

does sometimes happen, for sure. 

Katy: yeah, 

it definitely does. I'm a sleep talker. I'm not a sleep walker, thankfully. I know. Shocking, right? We're both sleep talkers, 

Laura: Yeah, right.

Never shut up. I also, I can, I have my mom, she used to, of course, check on us at night. [00:16:00] I was not a sleep walker, but I have acted out certain things like she saw me one time. I looked like I was picking berries.

Katy: Oh yeah, yeah. No, some of my infamous Katy talking in our sleep stories from my childhood was, so my sister and I shared a bed. We were 15 months apart. One was that I woke up in the middle of the night, was like, Carrie, Carrie, Carrie. Turn on the light. Turn on the light, like freaking around. She's went over, turned on the light and I'm like looking everywhere around my bed and she's what are, what is it?

I'm like, where are the matches? She's like, what are you, what are you talking about? I was like, the matches, I need matches to show you a magic trick. And that was it. And she was like, go back to sleep. I was like, I need the matches. 

Laura: My mom. My mom said my favorite one is when she came up and I don't, was must have been saying something. And she said, are like, is everything okay? And I said, I'm holding onto my stuffed bear Paddington. I'm like, Paddington's too close to the wall. Bam. And I just slam him against the wall. I would find mom, if I were my mom, I would've been dying.

Katy: Yeah. 

Laura: too [00:17:00] close to the wall. Bam.

Katy: Yeah. Goodness. So when all of this is happening, what's going on in Dream? Like we said, your brain is basically awake. The REM sleep, the rapid eye movement. Is when the dreaming magic basically always happens. And here's the weird part, your brainwaves during REM look almost identical.

Like Laura said, whenever you're awake, EEG scans show high frequency, low amplitude activity. Just like when you're solving problems or scrolling through memes on the internet. That's why dreams can feel super, super real even though your body is in full lockdown mode. So your brain's basically throwing a party and your muscles just are like, don't.

Absolutely 

Laura: It's just amazing that your brain does it like, it's 

you know what? We need to work through some stuff. I'm playing this one

'cause for sure. Your waking states influence your dreams.

Katy: Oh yeah, definitely. And I'll get into that in a second too. So what else is happening going on up there in your [00:18:00] brain? Your inner logic is basically on vacation. So during rem, your prefrontal cortex, the part of your brain responsible for logic, decision making and impulse control. Goes offline, just completely offline.

And that's why your dreams are allowed to be just straight up nonsense. And your dream self doesn't bat an eye at anything really that's going on. Oh, I'm flying to school in a bagel with a dolphin. Like, like that's, 

Laura: would be crazy dizzy. Do you, do you find anything about what happens for people? So , it's not all the time, but I do lucid dream sometimes

where I 

realize I'm dreaming. 

Katy: lucid dream. I, I'm a hardcore, I didn't get into that because that's like a whole, that's oddly enough what I was finding was highly debated. There are some scientists that are like, no, you cannot lucid dream. So if you guys dunno what lucid dreaming is, it's whenever you're aware that you're dreaming in a dream and you can control it.

I have always been the kid that could remember dreams. Like I would wake up, boom. I remember my dreams like [00:19:00] constantly and consistently. And then whenever I got to college and I started researching, we were in a, some psych class, I forget. And I was like, oh, we mentioned something about lucid dreaming.

I was like, oh, that's kind of like what I do. And I started doing, you know, deep dive, thank you. A DHD into it. And there's ways that you can help yourself lucid dream. And I was like, well, let's give these a shot. And ever since then, 90% of the time, if I want to, I can control my, like I'm in the dream and like, all right, cool.

I'm dreaming, let's go here. And my brain, how my brain works is it's consistently a map. So whenever you have those dreams where you're going back to your high school, it's similar to my high school, but not the same. But I go back to it often enough. There's like a whole map in 

my head. So 

Laura: you have, it's like a Sherlock Holmes. What's it? What does he have? He's got the mind map thing where he

Katy: yeah. The my map where, so you know where everything is. Yeah, and it's and so there's like a, basically like a city, because [00:20:00] I can go to a theme park , and I know where the theme park is. I can be running from something that's trying to get to me and I'm like, oh, if I just go around this corner, I'm gonna go ahead and I can, , and I'm making like aware of , okay, cool, I'm dreaming and I can do this and this, and I can change it.

So it's not 'cause normally whenever you're dreaming, you don't really have that conscious control over it, you know? Yes. You might be quote unquote making decisions and things whenever you're sleeping, but I'm like, oh, okay, cool. I'm sleeping. I don't wanna be here and I don't wanna be chased.

Why don't I just go over there and I can lose these guys? Like, I'm making conscious decisions when I'm sleeping to alter the outcome of it.

Laura: has been usually it's something really terrible happens in a dream. Like horrific. Like

I run somebody over with a car. I mean that stuff happens

 And then I'll be like, this is terrible. My life is over. I, man, I hope this is a dream. And then it's I stop in my dream and I try and remember the last thing and I was like, wait, this is a dream.

And then

I wake up my [00:21:00] brain is like, you know, like

Katy: Yeah. See, I 

Laura: I can't control it really, but I

will throw myself out of it, which is great. 'cause they're always terrible.

The only time is I, sometimes I have woken up during good dreams and then I'm like, I need to go right

back to sleep. I need to go right back to sleep and continue this.

And I have done that.

Katy: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I've done that too, but I don't know. I think it's because I have such, like that mind map made out, I don't know, because I am in a dream and I'm , okay, cool. Like I can do all the crazy stuff. I'm very aware the repercussions of anything and when I'm dreaming are not the same in the real world.

So it, it is pretty cool. , it is a lot of fun. , and again, it's like probably 90% of the time it has to be something where yours is pretty, like something traumatic has to happen For me. It, it's something unusual has to happen and then I'm like, oh, I'm dreaming.

Duh. And that's 

Laura: It's literally like inception. Yeah.

Where you see this top and you're like, that's not,

Katy: That, yeah. That's not right. Let's, , I'm [00:22:00] 

Laura: Glitching out. 

Katy: And I'm always carrying weapons, like, like I'm always carrying 

Laura: I have a common theme of moving very slowly,

Katy: Oh, 

interesting. 

Laura: Which I mean is definitely some brain thing where you're like, either I can feel the paralysis like slightly

or I can't move forward in life or something I don't like.

Katy: Interesting. 'cause I'm always, I'm the opposite. I'm always going super fast. Let's just say some, whatever's chasing me or whatever, I'm like, oh, I can outrun this. I can Spider-Man and like jump 

Laura: I have done that one time where like gravity wasn't really a thing very

Katy: Yeah.

Yeah. So besides your brain basically being awake, the inner logic is just gone 

for most people. Yeah. Your emotions are cranked up. The amygdala, your brain's emotional command center is super active during rem This is why your dreams are often packed with high stakes drama, late for a test being chased, like we just said, falling in [00:23:00] love with a stranger and a whatever.

Like all that stuff is because you're emotional. It's, it's way, way, way more awake than what it is on your day to day. And your memory is doing some pretty weird things during it. So the hippocampus your brain's memory Wrangler is working really hard in the run sleep stage, but not like it normally does.

Instead of organizing your memories, in a neat filing cabinet like it normally should, it's mashing together, recent stuff, old stuff, random thoughts, subconscious material into just one chaotic storyline.

Laura: makes sense. It just

dumps it. 

Katy: And so that's why oftentimes, a lot of people, they have that dream where they're back in high school and they have to repeat a class or whatever.

Laura: That's definitely like a classic one for

me is that I don't have my schedule for either high

school or college. I'm missing the 

Katy: Or, or that, I forgot my locker combination. But again, because I lucid dream, I'll be like, oh, I forgot my locker combination.

And oddly enough, that normally triggers me [00:24:00] and I'm like, oh my God, I did this, I do this all the time. And I just go up and like be, be, be, be, be be fully aware. I don't know what it is. And I'm like, opens every time because I'm so I'm aware, aware enough that I'm always gonna forget my locker combination, but it doesn't matter because no matter what I put in, it's gonna open it anyway kind of thing.

 So all of that, just of what's going on is just the jum and that's what gives us all those weird timelines. But dreaming isn't necessarily just. Weird entertainment, as much fun as like I like to have with it. It actually does some important things. And just like Laura was saying earlier, the purpose of dreams is just as debated as what the purpose of sleep is, which is odd because you would think that I know it's the human brain and everything with the human brain is highly debated.

But again, you would think stuff like this is , okay, no, cool, that makes sense. That makes sense. But nope, people are, have all kinds of argue arguments over this. So some of the big 

ones that 

Laura: just like the cultural implications of such.

Like we have tried to figure this [00:25:00] crap out since we were cave people.

Katy: yes, yes, very much . So one of the reasons why we think we're dreaming is emotional processing. Your brain is your therapist, just a lot weirder, essentially. So REM sleep, again, is a, is emotional spring cleaning in a way our brain pulls up stressful or emotional stuff like the weird, intense conversations with your boss or that high school situation.

 And it kind of helps you work through it sometimes in a little bit of a, I don't know, you might not have control of it, but at the same time you, you, you do. And so it just helps you process it a little bit, even if you're not as conscious, 

Laura: It's your safe space. 

Katy: Yeah, exactly. And it helps you work through it in a little bit more creative ways than what you're used to.

Another reason why we think we dream is memory consolidation. Your brain is filing the important stuff away whenever you're snoozing. So dreaming is when your brain takes new memories and decides where to file them. Keep toss, [00:26:00] combine with the, something else. So your hippocampus, again, like I said, your memory manager is busy linking what you just learned with older stuff you've already stored.

So even though things to us don't make. Sense because it's so weird. It's because your brain, so you are, for lack of better term, you guys have all, hopefully have seen the movie inside Out from Disney, how there's the sleep and there's the projector going on, but then there's all the people working back there filing all the balls and stuff like that.

It's essentially, that is what this is. You know what this one school of thought is, is yes, you're, there's the movie going on up here, but it's all weird because there's all the things moving around in the back of your brain as a, as organizing it and filing it. So there's also, they think it's creative problem solving, which is a smart exercise for your brain to go through.

You know, your dream brain is kind of 

like a 

chaotic genius 

Laura: people are, people's decisions are influenced by their dreams. Sometimes

Katy: Oh, definitely. Oh, 

Laura: it worked [00:27:00] out this way. I think it's gonna work out in real life.

Katy: Yeah. E, exactly. So your dreaming brain isn't bound by logic like we said, which means it can mix and match ideas in totally new ways. It's like your brain is just throwing a bizarre brainstorming session at, at 2:00 AM but , without your permission. And that's why some people wake up with new ideas, inventions, storylines.

I've had some of my best breakthroughs. , wake up at 2:00 AM I'm like, I gotta write this down. Some of it then it doesn't make any sense. I'll wake up at 2:00 AM and I'm like, this is amazing. This totally makes sense. And then I read it in the morning. I'm like, that doesn't make any sense at all.

 But sometimes some of my best ideas for, I mean, my whole career have come from just literally woke wake up in the middle of the night. I'm like, oh, I gotta write this down, or I gotta type it out on my phone and stuff. And, the fourth reason, and I'm gonna talk about, let's see here, two more.

Here is, cognitive reframing. It's emotional test runs, but with less pressure. So let's say you're anxious about a big conversation, a breakup, [00:28:00] stressful event. Your brain may take that kind of repackage it into a symbolic dream. And that's where it never, people are like, if you come across a whale in your dream, it means X, y, Z.

'cause sometimes like your brain, , does that, or like all your teeth falling out, like everybody has almost had that dream where Yeah. And so it, it so the cognitive reframing is like a take, something that you're going through shifts it, its perspective a little bit to help you process things from a different angle, but safely.

And so your brain's , Hey, let's just practice out this fear. But in a world that's safe and you know that for the most part you're safe. So the last one is neural cleanup, where just your brain is taking out the trash while you're drooling. So during rem your brain isn't just artsy emotional, crazy chaos, it's also scrubbing itself clean.

It flushes out anything old doesn't need. The waste 

products 

strengthens I.

Laura: out the toxins in

my, yeah. 

Katy: And it, [00:29:00] and it strengthens all those important neural connections. And dreaming has a lot to do with that because your brain is awake. And again, like we said, like even though it's like the movie projectors going on, it's that all needs to happen so that everything behind the scenes can go on.

So yeah. So dreams can definitely be weird, but they're also very, very useful even if a lot of people don't remember most of them. , if you wanna know how to lucid dream the trick that I used, which at worked, which a lot of people you'll read and be like, that's not gonna work. Totally worked for me. You drink a crap ton of apple juice, like fresh as pure as can be apple juice.

'cause there is a thing. Hold on. What? In apple juice, there's a compound on apples. You just could not eat that many apples to get it. Okay. I know there's no scientific evidence to prove it. Some speculate that apple juice may increase the acetylcholine levels, which is a neurotransmitter, involved in memory and sleep. Again, there's no proven link behind it. [00:30:00] The other school of thought of this is okay, if you drink a ton of anything, like a ton of water or whatever, before you go to bed, you're more likely because you're most awake at that rim, you're gonna, you're gonna have to go to the bathroom and you're gonna wake yourself up.

So you're more likely to wake up to a very conscious 'cause normally if you, if, yeah, if you quote unquote wake up after rem, you're not fully, fully awake. But if you drink a lot of water, or in this case they said apple juice. I tried apple juice 'cause I was like, why not? And that, that seemed to work for me.

So I started, I did that several nights in a row to the point when, I don't know, it was maybe like a week later where I was like, Hmm, I'm dreaming. And then I don't know what happened that just triggered it in my brain that was like, cool, we can dream now and we can control all this. So 

if 

Laura: so great. I can remember dreams from literally childhood

Katy: Oh, me too. 

Laura: I don't forget a lot

Katy: Yeah. And again, for me it's all in the same world. So if I [00:31:00] go to those dreams from childhood, 'cause I have this really weird dream about the steak and I'm like in ancient Egypt, don't 

know. Yeah. But I, but I'm like, oh, okay. I know that this is around the corner from this, I just have to travel a little bit farther to get there.

So all those, all the dreams even in my childhood are connected to the ones now. I should be studied.

Laura: I know.

Yeah. I just, yeah, I think it's, I think dreams are so fascinating.

Katy: yeah.

Laura: I don't dream as much as I used to because I get woken up too much to be in

REM for very 

much. Yeah. Yeah.

But I don't go through all my cycles.

And speaking of not getting enough sleep,

I'm gonna tell about sleep deprivation. So I wanted to talk about real quick two things, which is sleep deprivation versus and sleep deficiency.

Okay. Sleep deficiency is just, you're not getting enough sleep. The first thing is sleep deprivation. That's like the more common term. Okay. Sleep [00:32:00] deficiency is when you have one or more of the following. Sleep deficiency and sleep deprivation can be used interchangeably in that case. Or sleep deficiency can also include sleeping at the wrong time of day, not sleeping well or having a sleep disorder. So sometimes used interchangeably, but technically different. Alright, so sleep de deprivation where you don't get enough sleep. Everybody out there listening is like preach.

 At least here in America, we're notorious for sleep deprivation. So I have the five 'cause I wanted to, we all know what it's like to not get enough sleep, right?

You feel tired, you feel mental fog, you know you're yawning a lot that kind of stuff. But I'm talking serious sleep deprivation. So there are

five stages of acute deprivation. Stage 1 24 hours with no sleep. It is the same as having, it is having a blood alcohol level of 0.1,

which is higher than the legal limit.

Alright? So if you go 24, if you have an all nighter with your [00:33:00] friends like I used to do in high school. Basically are drunk driving the next day. Stage 2, 36 hours of no sleep. You are, you feel more pressure to sleep. You have increased appetite, which is kind of interesting. Micros sleeps may occur, which means when you might be asleep, but you don't know you're asleep.

And it only lasts for a few seconds at a time.

Katy: Yeah. Have you ever seen those ultra, ultra trail runners that they do a couple hundred miles. They literally are dozing sleeping as they're moving. It's insane. Yeah. It.

Laura: And at 36 hours with no sleep, you actually can start hallucinating. 48 hours of no sleep stage three more micro sleeps. You start to depersonalize. So you're not, you don't feel like you anymore. And it's disconnected.

Yeah,

Anxiety, bad anxiety, temporal distortion.

So not knowing time is weird. Perceptual distortions. So basically everything is like

up 48 hours. [00:34:00] Okay? A stage four is 72 hours of no sleep,

Katy: Yeah.

Laura: longer micro sleeps, complex hallucinations. This is where steps are going, crazy delusions and disordered thinking. And then finally is stage five, which is 96 hours of no sleep.

It's basically, it's the same symptoms as acute psychosis. You've gone

crazy. 

I mean, you're not dead, but you're crazy.

Katy: Yeah.

Laura: So some real bad stuff. The c, d, C states that one in three US adults claim to not get enough sleep. 

Katy: Mean, that's not even shocking. 

Laura: no. And 50 to 70 million Americans have a sleep disorder. We live particularly in America, in a society that is constantly go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. we don't

take naps as much as I wish that we did.

We don't take naps. We believe, in for sure, a 40 hour work week. The lights are always on somewhere. There's a shift going on at some, it is just nonstop.

So people

feel like they don't have time. Plus, we [00:35:00] can't afford to live unless you work a lot. ,

Katy: Yeah.

Laura: okay, well, what does just regular old sleep deprivation symptoms look like? Sometimes they look different in children than adults. And any of you out there who have children, you're like, yeah, because for kids of course, it's can't pay attention. But ironically, it becomes overly active,

right? When a kid is tired, they go crazy..

Balls, the walls. Yeah. Like just really hyper for a little bit. And then it's like, it's like in like in, , monster Zinc with

Boo, and she's 

Katy: Ha.

Laura: ha, crash. And they will, they will behave inappropriately.

It's one of your things of if your kid is not acting,

if they're Yeah. If they're 

acting out, could be. They're tired. 

Katy: Yeah.

Laura: But in adults it's fatigue, difficulty concentrating, headache, muscle aches, slow reaction time, irritability, poor decision making, hallucinations and delusions, and an increased appetite for sweetss and carbs.

Katy: Interesting.

Laura: Yeah. So what are the health issues? Okay, sure I'm [00:36:00] tired, but what's the problem with that? Serious problems, people, there's a far increased chance, a much higher rate of personal injury when you're tired, right?

Like you're not coordinated or whatever it is, there is a 48% increase in the risk of heart disease. 'cause your poor heart is never getting a freaking break. Kidney disease, high blood pressure, you're at three times the risk for developing type two diabetes. You're at a 50% higher risk of obesity if you get less than five hours a night. And the obesity and the diabetes and the heart disease can all be linked back to this, which is you have higher levels of hunger, hormones with sleep deprivation

and lower levels of appetite suppressing hormones.

So when you sleep, your hormones regulate themselves. Everything.

Like I said, it's like a reset if you don't reset. Those hormones didn't work. And so not only is your appetite not suppressed, your [00:37:00] hunger is increased, so you're gonna be

eating more in the daytime,

and then your body's not having a chance to do other things. There's actually a link to 33% increased risk of dementia, which is

enough to scare me into getting more sleep. , it ages your brain about three to five years, like when all

is said and done, of course, increased risk of stroke, increased inflammation, the root of all evil, 30% risk increased for colorectal cancer.

Katy: Interesting.

Laura: Which I wonder, I'm sure it's all, you know again, but here we are back again at gut health.

You know what

I mean? Like controlling all things. But I guess if something is going on with sleep and your gut,

Katy: Yeah. Interesting.

Laura: You decreased and it finally decreased immunity because it's, trying to regulate itself while you sleep.

And then of course all the mental health problems, depression, anxiety for mental illness, irritability, mental fog, all of those things.

So it is bad stuff. People, you don't get sleep and it's gonna take a toll on your entire body.

Katy: Oh yeah.

Laura: Like it can kill you.

[00:38:00] It might just take a while. Like it's

not instant, but it will kill you in the long run.

 You know if you're suffering from sleep deprivation? The amount of sleep changes as you age.

Babies need up to 18 hours, while most adults need seven to nine. You said you're like a good seven. I'm

definitely more of an eight to nine.

, so if you're not getting that, people, you're

Katy: If I am, I can fully function for, again, I outlying the insomnia spells that I get, I can adequately function. For probably at least two or three nights easily with, as long as I get four hours, four hours is my minimum and I'm , okay, cool. And I can get up and I can do everything I need to do the next day.

Seven is perfect for me. Anything more than I'm dragging in and I'm 

tired. I'm 

Laura: than six, I am not a functioning, I'm like barely functional.

Katy: Yeah. See for me it's, it's four. As long as I can get a solid four hours of sleep, then I'm good. Now that's, again, that's not my [00:39:00] insomnia where I'm just like, again, as little as 40 minutes and max is four hours.

Then after any of that, again, my biggest streak was 54 nights and I was like, I have to do 

something. Yeah. 

'cause it was just it that that's whenever it was getting bad. So.

Laura: Well, and what's the worst that can happen Or how long have people gone without sleep? So, real quick, longest on record. There are two people that I just wanted to cover because it is kind of debated. They actually, so Guinness Broke of World Records used to keep track of this until 1997.

And then they said no more.

Katy: It's just not 

Laura: be trying to do this. Right? They, Guinness World Records was like, this is too dangerous for people

Katy: Well, yeah. 'cause it's like who can hold their hand in the fire the longest? Like it's not healthy, it's not a good idea. I mean,

Laura: Nobody should be trying. But, so there are still people that claim past these people. I'm about to talk about modern day people who are

like, I'm doing it, but

we don't know [00:40:00] the most publicized person. And the most well-documented case of sleep deprivation was Randy Gardner, who was 17 years old.

Thankfully his body was at least 

Katy: Yeah. He's at least a teen. Yeah,

Laura: He, along with two friends, wanted to do a sleep deprivation study for the science fair freaking nerds.

In a good way, guys. I'm proud of you. But like, wow.

Katy: yeah.

Laura: , so they started, they drew, they basically drew straws and Randy lost. So he had to

stay up while his friends monitored and helped a little bit with solidarity.

So this, it started on December 28th in 1963.

Katy: So Christmas break. 

Laura: Yeah. It got picked up by the news after a few days because after a few days everyone was like, I can't believe this dude's still awake.

And then it was, so then it was picked up in the media and then it came to the attention of a Stanford sleep researcher and a Navy medic. Both of who were like, we are coming, we're

watching this. Because normally you can't do this to people,

right? This had to [00:41:00] be self-inflicted. 'cause they

can't research people by making them other than

torture. So Yeah.

the Navy medic and the Stanford sleep researcher, he broke after 11 days, which

was 264 hours of no sleep.

Katy: Oh my God,

Laura: They, so they described, besides the fact that he was going crazy, his body itself, after all the tests that they did, they said his body was perfectly healthy. ,

 Who knows long term dude.

, like later, he probably, I think I read later that he

did have problems with insomnia. 

Katy: His name?

Laura: Randy Gardner,

I, I looked up any that he did say he had bouts later with insomnia, but who

Katy: He's 78.

Laura: Yep. Still going. And,

, so he finally passed out. They took him to the hospital to make sure he was okay and he slept for 14 hours, which actually doesn't seem like that much. Having gone for 264 hours

without sleep, I'd be out for days. And then the person who broke his [00:42:00] record but is not well recorded, this was like a thing. Robert McDonald, who was 27 years old, he was a professional stunt man.

He was like, let's do it. So in 1986 he went for 18 days, 21 hours and 40 minutes, which is insane.

Katy: Geez. 

Laura: So yeah, don't sleep deprivation.

Bad guys don't do it. Get some sleep.

Katy: Yeah. So it says here, I was just looking up like Randy Gardner now, and now again. Again, how do you know what he went through later on in life is linked back to this or not. You know what I 

Laura: Right, exactly. Causation and correlation. We don't

Katy: Yes, exactly. So, but he did say, it looks like in a, in 2017, Gardner told NPR that he started experiencing serious insomnia around 2007.

And he believed that his participation in the 19 sixties, , of depriving himself asleep, was the cause [00:43:00] of it. He said that he would describe his insomnia as completely unbearable, and he would lay in bed for four or five, six hours sleep, maybe 15 minutes and wake up again, which is like my insomnia spells.

 It's definitely no fun. But they did say that he clinically developed insomnia as an adult, and that was, it looks like about, let's see here, 2017. So, I mean, he was,

Laura: in his

like 

Katy: was in the, in the study. Sorry. Sorry. The study was what, in the sixties?

Laura: Yeah. He was 17 and 63. So he is, ,

Katy: Yeah, so he was older and I, which again, it's okay, how much of that is insomnia? How much, and how much of that is related to a bajillion other 

things. So if you want to not follow in Randy Gardner's footsteps, maybe, some tips and tricks for better sleep. And so again, I know that these things are true.

Do I do 

them? I attempt to, but 'cause I [00:44:00] know my sleep. But again, part of that's just my brain, my body. A-D-H-D-A-D-H-D meds. It's a stimulant. I'm a mom. Like I if 

Laura: there. You do what you can.

Although I tell you what, if, they built a siesta hour into work, I'd be a hundred percent on board.

Katy: Right. I mean, Luke alone, if I have him on the nights, I have him, if he sneaks into bed, I'm kicked the rest of the night. That's lack of sleep. So, but the tips, create a consistent sleep schedule. Going to bed and waking up at the same time every day, even on weekends, is very important. So consistently consistency helps regulate your body's internal clock.

Making it easier to fall asleep and wake up naturally. A regular sleep schedule improves the quality of res sleep, which is essential for memory consolidation and emotional regulation, which this is one of the biggest arguments against the whole time change thing. I am 100% somebody who will, who, who prefers and needs to sleep with the blinds open.

Like I don't have those blackout [00:45:00] blinds. I'm a morning person. I'm normally up at 4:00 AM that's just when I set my alarm 'cause I've crap to get done, workout and everything, but. If I quote unquote sleep in that, the first sign of light, I'm up, I'm awake. , and that's when I feel best. if I, if it the, if it's the sun that is waking me up, that's when I feel best camping and stuff like that.

Always feel the best. Create a sleep inducing environment. Make your bedroom peaceful. I don't have a TV in my bedroom. I haven't for, well, for a while. Since I've been divorced, I haven't had a TV in my bedroom. I'm somebody who does need, 'cause I have tinnitus in my ear, probably from my insomnia.

, so I do need some noise or else I just hear ringing all night. But so it's create, make your bedroom quiet, peaceful. , they do say that dim lighting, comfortable bedding, of course, cooler temperatures that you sleep a lot better, whenever it's, whenever your body's cooler and. A lot of these are saying like, yeah, no [00:46:00] noise at all.

And that's 

Laura: which is an I have to go to sleep with. I just can't, my brain doesn't want to shut off,

Katy: Yeah. Mine doesn't 

Laura: but, and so if I have no noise or even just

background noise, it, I'll think of other things.

Katy: Exactly. And it doesn't 

Laura: I have to listen to an audio book. I

must, if I don't listen to a story, if, 

Katy: yeah. Luke listens to, , honeybee bedtime stories. Shout out to honeybee bedtime 

Laura: something, it doesn't even have to be interesting. It just

has to keep my brain half occupied so that the other half can be like, okay, we're going to sleep

Katy: exactly. Yeah. And Luke he'll listen to those. And then once he, once I can tell he's out, I'll go in and I'll 

actually switch it to just music. 

Laura: like, I put on like a 15 minute timer, and usually that's good for me, but , I need

Katy: Yeah. Just like you said, to wind your brain down. Limit screen time before bed avoids, screens, phones, computers, TVs at least 30 to [00:47:00] 60 minutes before going to sleep. And that's because again, the blue light that's emitted from screens suppresses the production of melatonin, the hormone that regulates sleep.

Melatonin just jack squat for me. I,

Laura: Well, it does the exact, there's a huge risk to using melatonin because if you don't fall asleep quickly after taking melatonin, it will do the opposite.

So a lot of parents, a lot of people are given their kids melatonin these days, and it can be the exact opposite.

Katy: You can only, and you can only and should only use melatonin for a short period of 

time. You, it shouldn't be a consistent, yeah, it's not a permanent solution, so you have to figure out something else. Melatonin just, it doesn't do any, it never has. I've tried.

Laura: but it'll put him out for, oh, if he doesn't get up all night's sleep,

he'll be so drowsy in the morning.

Katy: Yeah. Watch what you eat and drink. Avoid heavy, like really heavy meals, caffeine, alcohol, and large amounts of fluids close to bedtime. And that's because obviously caffeine and alcohol can disrupt a sleep [00:48:00] cycle. I don't, I don't know. I've got some my best nights of sleep when I've been out with friends and you have like bunches of laughter, some drinks and stuff and you just, you tire yourself out.

Laura: it 

has to be a fine line because too much alcohol and I've definitely woken up from it. 'cause I

You can in bad ways, either nausea or shaking. Like actually shaking.

Katy: maybe it's just me. 'cause when I drink, and again, I don't get completely trashed. One, I'm 36, but two, I just don't, and maybe it's the sugar in my A DHD, but I am definitely get energized, so I normally and typically the life of the party, whatever. And but because of that, I get I guess like a little kid, I work myself up so much that by the time I'm home I'm like, okay, let's go to bed.

So yeah. Then I crash. Next one, relax before bed. Typically I do engage in relaxing activities like reading, meditation, e-readers. , Not pushing for Kindles, but like I have a Kindle that that's not blue 

Laura: If you have that back, the [00:49:00] back lit. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah.

Katy: Yeah. And so Kindles are great , for reading. Any kind of other relaxation techniques that can lower your heart rate and calm your mind signaling in your body.

That's time to wind down exercising regularly, but not too close to going to bed. That's why I wake up and I exercise typically first thing in the morning for me. I love getting up early. That's why I get up at 4:00 AM and I go work out. Because for me, my brain is not awake enough to fight myself.

, so I'm, and it's work, so I'm just I'm up at 4:00 AM you know, tiredly get, and everything stumble, go to the gym and I can't argue with myself that early. So I just do it and I get it done with, , limit naps during the day, manage stress and anxiety.

 Consider professional help if you do need it. , I've talked to my therapist doctor, and unfortunately in America, a lot of the culture from the doctors, not mine, but previous doctors that I've seen in psychiatrists and stuff have been like, well try sleeping pills.

'cause I'm like, yeah, melatonin doesn't work. And [00:50:00] they're like, 

well, sleeping pills. 

I'm like, and I'm like, Nope, don't. And I've never taken 'em because , I don't wanna get, 'cause then again, then it has negative repercussions of, yeah, you can get, you can get hooked to 'em, but. If you do start to get to a point where you aren't somebody, this has been me my whole life.

My whole life. I've never gotten good sleep. So this is normal for me. Is it healthy? No, but it's normal. But if you're someone who you're all of a sudden you're not getting good sleep and you're like, this isn't like me, then definitely talk to your doctor because something else could be, could definitely 

Laura: like, after a 54 day stint like you, I'd give you a horse. I'd be like, Katy, you have to have a horse tranquilizer, something. You

have to get some sleep. 

Katy: So, yeah.

Laura: on that note, I'm ready for bed.

Katy: Yeah. Laura's ready for bed and I need to get my eyes away from the blue light. 

So we do have, , more cosmic critters coming out, and we're getting close to the end of the season here, but again, like we had last, the last season break, we're still doing the mini sos so we'll figure out what we're doing.

We'll let you guys know for that one 'cause we haven't figured it out yet. But [00:51:00] yeah, make sure you guys go, check us out on Patreon at some point during this episode. Hopefully you heard a little, I don't know, mid episode break talking about the tragedy of our YouTube. So I'm just gonna, I was so 

so 

Laura: of 2025.

Katy: Listen, I was so frustrated. So if you guys could please for the love of God, go subscribe to that. 'cause I've had to build that back up and that was such a pain in the butt. But please go subscribe, , to that 'cause that'll help. You also get to see the full videos of Laura and I or, our faces and laughing and stuff.

And so of course that's way more fun to, to see our faces and stuff as much as, yeah, it helps with the downloads. Listening to us on podcasts. Love for you guys to go check us out on YouTube. And I also post, short little reels and snippets of all the shows, which we've talked about before. Way funnier when you 

Laura: Context Yeah. 

Katy: whatsoever.

, so please go subscribe, yeah, and then leave us a great review and check out Patreon and stuff too. So, until next week, 

guys. 

Laura: everybody.